Tigers List Archive

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Dave Abbott <(email redacted)>

Hi everyone,

Getting a fair amount of disparity (from Tiger owners
I have asked) as to the value of a 64 Tiger I am
thinking about purchasing. Thought I would throw it
by the experts! I know valuation is tough this way -
but I'm looking for general feedback.

The facts:

SN#s do not match. 1964 Chassis, 1965 engine from a
Fairlane.

Engine was balanced and blue printed, about 25K miles
on the rebuild, new Holly 4bbl carburetor, lots of
chrome, nicely painted - SPOTLESS engine compartment.
Will need to upgrade to aluminum radiator (or install
aggressive fan) as it tends to get very hot if not
moving. Runs great otherwise.

Exterior - upgraded rims and tires, reasonable tread
left. Chrome is in excellent condition, paint is good
to excellent, guardsman red (couple of small scratches
and one 3 inch crack). No rust on the frame. VERY
strong curb appeal.

Interior: Rough compared to rest of the car - Seats
are out of a TR7 as the current owner was too tall for
the originals. Most gauges work, will need to
refinish the dash. Have the parts for the soft top,
original has completely come apart. Needs carpet.

Thanks in advance,

-dave

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Kathy and Erich Coiner" <(email redacted)>

I would put the value around 14 to 16k

Erich

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Abbott" <(email redacted)>
To: <(email redacted)>
Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 11:01 AM
Subject: Value of Tiger in the Midwest


> Hi everyone,
>
> Getting a fair amount of disparity (from Tiger owners
> I have asked) as to the value of a 64 Tiger I am
> thinking about purchasing. Thought I would throw it
> by the experts! I know valuation is tough this way -
> but I'm looking for general feedback.
>
> The facts:
>
> SN#s do not match. 1964 Chassis, 1965 engine from a
> Fairlane.
>
> Engine was balanced and blue printed, about 25K miles
> on the rebuild, new Holly 4bbl carburetor, lots of
> chrome, nicely painted - SPOTLESS engine compartment.
> Will need to upgrade to aluminum radiator (or install
> aggressive fan) as it tends to get very hot if not
> moving. Runs great otherwise.
>
> Exterior - upgraded rims and tires, reasonable tread
> left. Chrome is in excellent condition, paint is good
> to excellent, guardsman red (couple of small scratches
> and one 3 inch crack). No rust on the frame. VERY
> strong curb appeal.
>
> Interior: Rough compared to rest of the car - Seats
> are out of a TR7 as the current owner was too tall for
> the originals. Most gauges work, will need to
> refinish the dash. Have the parts for the soft top,
> original has completely come apart. Needs carpet.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> -dave

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Russ Eshelman" <(email redacted)>

Dave, It seems to make a difference what part of the country that you live
in also as to value. What kind of a price is he asking?
Russ

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Abbott" <(email redacted)>
To: <(email redacted)>
Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 2:01 PM
Subject: Value of Tiger in the Midwest


> Hi everyone,
>
> Getting a fair amount of disparity (from Tiger owners
> I have asked) as to the value of a 64 Tiger I am
> thinking about purchasing. Thought I would throw it
> by the experts! I know valuation is tough this way -
> but I'm looking for general feedback.
>
> The facts:
>
> SN#s do not match. 1964 Chassis, 1965 engine from a
> Fairlane.
>
> Engine was balanced and blue printed, about 25K miles
> on the rebuild, new Holly 4bbl carburetor, lots of
> chrome, nicely painted - SPOTLESS engine compartment.
> Will need to upgrade to aluminum radiator (or install
> aggressive fan) as it tends to get very hot if not
> moving. Runs great otherwise.
>
> Exterior - upgraded rims and tires, reasonable tread
> left. Chrome is in excellent condition, paint is good
> to excellent, guardsman red (couple of small scratches
> and one 3 inch crack). No rust on the frame. VERY
> strong curb appeal.
>
> Interior: Rough compared to rest of the car - Seats
> are out of a TR7 as the current owner was too tall for
> the originals. Most gauges work, will need to
> refinish the dash. Have the parts for the soft top,
> original has completely come apart. Needs carpet.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> -dave

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Andy Walker" <(email redacted)>

Hi, everybody:

I just wanted to take a moment to respond to this thread regarding values of
Tigers in the Midwest. I'm aware that I'll probably get flamed for this,
but what the heck; it's only my opinion. So, here goes.

There seems to be a notion out there that Tigers residing in this part of
the country are worth less than Tigers in other parts. Folks, a nice Tiger
is a nice Tiger; it doesn't matter where in the country it is located. I
would readily put my Mk1A up against any other Tiger in the country as far
as quality is concerned. When put on a level playing field, i.e. equal
quality of cars, how can someone say that the Midwest car is worth less?
The only possible explanation for this is that the population concentrations
of these cars seem to be on either coast, thereby making them more readily
available to buyers in those areas if and when they come up for sale.
Really, however, I think that's a crock because if someone is really serious
about getting a nice car and there is one for sale in the Midwest part of
the country, doesn't it stand to reason that this person would travel (if
possible) to view and possibly buy the car?

Personally (and let the flames begin), although I totally understand the
reason for the existence of the TAC program, I just can't help thinking that
it is part of the cause for this perception of value differences across the
country. I was a member of this list when the TAC was formed and I remember
people saying that it would end up allowing members who were fortunate
enough to have a TAC inspection in their general area to be able to ask more
for their cars come sale time because they were "authenticated." The
originators of the TAC program, however, poo-pooed this idea, saying that
nothing of the kind would happen. I think it is reasonable to assume at
this point that, given the statement that "values of Tigers are less in the
Midwest," the lack of a TAC program around here (Oklahoma, in my case) is
definitely hurting values. I can only speak for my car and a couple of
others I've known forever around here, but our cars are just as authentic as
the ones on either coast that have been TACed...why, then, should they be
considered to be of lower value, considering that the TAC program was
supposedly not set up to inflate the value of "authenticated" Tigers in the
first place?

I would love to become a TAC inspector in my area, but I understand that it
takes three TAC inspectors in any given area to make an authentication
legal. Well, that blows us out of the water because there are hardly even
enough Tiger owners around here to be called up for "duty." So, does the
lack of a TAC program in the Midwest hurt the value of our cars? I think
the answer is a resounding YES!

Now, before I get flamed too badly, I do want to again point out that, on
the whole, I think the TAC idea is a good one...in theory. I do wish,
however, that the "theory" could be applied in other places besides just the
coasts. I also want to point out that, whereas I don't feel that the group
who birthed the TAC did it with the idea foremost in mind to build up the
values of "authenticated" Tigers, I do believe that it has had that result.
Anyway, this is just my two cents worth.

Thanks,
Andy Walker
Edmond, OK
B382001600LRXFE

----- Original Message -----
From: "Russ Eshelman" <(email redacted)>
To: "Dave Abbott" <(email redacted)>; <(email redacted)>
Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 2:39 PM
Subject: Re: Value of Tiger in the Midwest


> Dave, It seems to make a difference what part of the country that you
live
> in also as to value. What kind of a price is he asking?
> Russ
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dave Abbott" <(email redacted)>
> To: <(email redacted)>
> Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 2:01 PM
> Subject: Value of Tiger in the Midwest
>
>
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > Getting a fair amount of disparity (from Tiger owners
> > I have asked) as to the value of a 64 Tiger I am
> > thinking about purchasing. Thought I would throw it
> > by the experts! I know valuation is tough this way -
> > but I'm looking for general feedback.
> >
> > The facts:
> >
> > SN#s do not match. 1964 Chassis, 1965 engine from a
> > Fairlane.
> >
> > Engine was balanced and blue printed, about 25K miles
> > on the rebuild, new Holly 4bbl carburetor, lots of
> > chrome, nicely painted - SPOTLESS engine compartment.
> > Will need to upgrade to aluminum radiator (or install
> > aggressive fan) as it tends to get very hot if not
> > moving. Runs great otherwise.
> >
> > Exterior - upgraded rims and tires, reasonable tread
> > left. Chrome is in excellent condition, paint is good
> > to excellent, guardsman red (couple of small scratches
> > and one 3 inch crack). No rust on the frame. VERY
> > strong curb appeal.
> >
> > Interior: Rough compared to rest of the car - Seats
> > are out of a TR7 as the current owner was too tall for
> > the originals. Most gauges work, will need to
> > refinish the dash. Have the parts for the soft top,
> > original has completely come apart. Needs carpet.
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> >
> > -dave

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Larry Paulick <(email redacted)>

Hi Andy. I think you have a very good set of valid points, to which I
agree.

First, a good Tiger is a good Tiger. An abused Tiger is still abused,
no mater where it lives. The abused Tigers in the rust belt states
suffer more, since the bodies of all cars of that era were not made to
last, like they do now.

Second, the TAC program is spreading, but not at the pace the STOA had
wished. It is revving up here on the East Coast with 2 new Sr.
Inspectors, Tom Calvert and Paul Shehan, but you still need 2 regular
Inspectors along with the Sr to do a TAC.

Last year at TACFeast, Tom Hall came to Maryland to teach new
Inspectors, and TAC cars. It was successful, and we now have the Sr and
regular Inspectors to do the job from the Northeast to Fl, with relative
ease.

The Midwest is still devoid of Inspectors, and we need some enthusiast
to step up and hold a Midwest TACFeast to train and TAC cars.

With volunteers, it is hard both financially and time wise to get on a
plane and go to TAC 2 cars. Not the ideal situation, or what the TAC
program would like, but reality.

Tomorrow at the TE/AE Crab Feast, we will have a TAC session, and one of
the owners will be trailering his car over 2300 to get here from MN to
have it inspected.

Wow, that is super, but I know that not everyone can do this. Reality
again.

Does the TAC program enhance the Tigers value? If I was buying a Tiger,
and knew something or nothing, I would be more inclined to buy the car
if it was TACed. Reality might also say that I would pay more for that
car.

But you are right, the TAC program, as I understand from Tom Hall, who
along with Norm Miller started the program, was not initiated to
increase the value of the car, but to authenticate a car as a real
Tiger. Same as with the Shelby program, where lots of fakes exist.

Andy, the solution at the present time, might be that you have to go to
a National Club event, where there will most likely be a TACing session.

Not the best of all possible worlds, but reality again.

I lived in Pittsburgh when I bought my first Tiger, and met a life long
friend who had a Tiger there also. Mine finally bit the dust as an
abused car in the rust belt, but his is still Looking Good, because it
is cared for.

So, not a perfect world, but your views are valid. Come see us, and we
will hold a TAC event for sure.

Larry

Andy Walker wrote:
> Hi, everybody:
>
> I just wanted to take a moment to respond to this thread regarding values of
> Tigers in the Midwest. I'm aware that I'll probably get flamed for this,
> but what the heck; it's only my opinion. So, here goes.
>
> There seems to be a notion out there that Tigers residing in this part of
> the country are worth less than Tigers in other parts. Folks, a nice Tiger
> is a nice Tiger; it doesn't matter where in the country it is located. I
> would readily put my Mk1A up against any other Tiger in the country as far
> as quality is concerned. When put on a level playing field, i.e. equal
> quality of cars, how can someone say that the Midwest car is worth less?
> The only possible explanation for this is that the population concentrations
> of these cars seem to be on either coast, thereby making them more readily
> available to buyers in those areas if and when they come up for sale.
> Really, however, I think that's a crock because if someone is really serious
> about getting a nice car and there is one for sale in the Midwest part of
> the country, doesn't it stand to reason that this person would travel (if
> possible) to view and possibly buy the car?
>
> Personally (and let the flames begin), although I totally understand the
> reason for the existence of the TAC program, I just can't help thinking that
> it is part of the cause for this perception of value differences across the
> country. I was a member of this list when the TAC was formed and I remember
> people saying that it would end up allowing members who were fortunate
> enough to have a TAC inspection in their general area to be able to ask more
> for their cars come sale time because they were "authenticated." The
> originators of the TAC program, however, poo-pooed this idea, saying that
> nothing of the kind would happen. I think it is reasonable to assume at
> this point that, given the statement that "values of Tigers are less in the
> Midwest," the lack of a TAC program around here (Oklahoma, in my case) is
> definitely hurting values. I can only speak for my car and a couple of
> others I've known forever around here, but our cars are just as authentic as
> the ones on either coast that have been TACed...why, then, should they be
> considered to be of lower value, considering that the TAC program was
> supposedly not set up to inflate the value of "authenticated" Tigers in the
> first place?
>
> I would love to become a TAC inspector in my area, but I understand that it
> takes three TAC inspectors in any given area to make an authentication
> legal. Well, that blows us out of the water because there are hardly even
> enough Tiger owners around here to be called up for "duty." So, does the
> lack of a TAC program in the Midwest hurt the value of our cars? I think
> the answer is a resounding YES!
>
> Now, before I get flamed too badly, I do want to again point out that, on
> the whole, I think the TAC idea is a good one...in theory. I do wish,
> however, that the "theory" could be applied in other places besides just the
> coasts. I also want to point out that, whereas I don't feel that the group
> who birthed the TAC did it with the idea foremost in mind to build up the
> values of "authenticated" Tigers, I do believe that it has had that result.
> Anyway, this is just my two cents worth.
>
> Thanks,
> Andy Walker
> Edmond, OK
> B382001600LRXFE
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Russ Eshelman" <(email redacted)>
> To: "Dave Abbott" <(email redacted)>; <(email redacted)>
> Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 2:39 PM
> Subject: Re: Value of Tiger in the Midwest
>
>
>
>>Dave, It seems to make a difference what part of the country that you
>
> live
>
>>in also as to value. What kind of a price is he asking?
>>Russ
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Dave Abbott" <(email redacted)>
>>To: <(email redacted)>
>>Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 2:01 PM
>>Subject: Value of Tiger in the Midwest
>>
>>
>>
>>>Hi everyone,
>>>
>>>Getting a fair amount of disparity (from Tiger owners
>>>I have asked) as to the value of a 64 Tiger I am
>>>thinking about purchasing. Thought I would throw it
>>>by the experts! I know valuation is tough this way -
>>>but I'm looking for general feedback.
>>>
>>>The facts:
>>>
>>>SN#s do not match. 1964 Chassis, 1965 engine from a
>>>Fairlane.
>>>
>>>Engine was balanced and blue printed, about 25K miles
>>>on the rebuild, new Holly 4bbl carburetor, lots of
>>>chrome, nicely painted - SPOTLESS engine compartment.
>>>Will need to upgrade to aluminum radiator (or install
>>>aggressive fan) as it tends to get very hot if not
>>>moving. Runs great otherwise.
>>>
>>>Exterior - upgraded rims and tires, reasonable tread
>>>left. Chrome is in excellent condition, paint is good
>>>to excellent, guardsman red (couple of small scratches
>>>and one 3 inch crack). No rust on the frame. VERY
>>>strong curb appeal.
>>>
>>>Interior: Rough compared to rest of the car - Seats
>>>are out of a TR7 as the current owner was too tall for
>>>the originals. Most gauges work, will need to
>>>refinish the dash. Have the parts for the soft top,
>>>original has completely come apart. Needs carpet.
>>>
>>>Thanks in advance,
>>>
>>>-dave
>>
>



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This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted)

Andy

I'll jump in the fire with you. I support the concept
of the TAC program and in fact have had my Tiger TAC'd.
I watch with interest as the program has been evolving
from a very parochial STOA program to a National effort.
Perhaps one day the 'powers that be' will recognize that
there many enthusiasts between the Appalachians and the Rockies.

Granted that the Midwest is the land of road salt.
But in all honesty, most sports car owners in the
Midwest, don't drive it in the snow and ice. That's
what the Ford or Chevy is for. It has the very
necessary heaters and defrosters and will start.

With any 30 year old car, you have to be very careful.
My dad used to say 'Never buy a used sports car or
a used pickup'. Good advice even today.

If any listers are near Chicago this Sunday, come to
the British Car Festival at the Moraine Valley College
in Palos Hills. 15 Sunbeams have already pre-registered.
Go to www.qth.com/bcu for more info.

My neighbor just asked me what I thought of 911.
I said I thought the 6 cylinder gave it much more
performance that the 912. I liked that the design
more than the 356. He looked at me strangely.

Dave Johnson

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Steve Laifman <(email redacted)>

Andy,

No flames. You make some very astute observations. Hopefully that
includes that it indeed was the intent of the originators to verify real
Tigers with the prevalence of counterfeits.

As you point out, population densities and logistics make this difficult
to be universal, although there are TAC programs in the Northwest,
Maryland/DC area, thanks to Larry with the mysterious diseases, and the
rest of the volunteers. But let me tell you that I have seen some non
rolling basket cases in terrible condition get that TAC certificate. It
isn't a judgement of quality, but originality - regardless of rust,
whatever. It could even have a Chevy motor.

I do not think that the cost of a West Coast Tiger is at all related to
the TAC program. There are only about 400-500 nationally.

I believe there are two very real elements at work, given that BOTH the
West Coast Tiger and the Mid West Tiger are real, and in the same
rustier condition.

First, there would be a lot more West Coast Tigers fitting that
category, as there is not that much special handling required to keep it
that way. So there are more of them.

Second, from your own description of how difficult it would be to set up
such a program, you are just acknowledging the density of available
Tigers and prospective owners are greater on the West Coast. This is
where most of the sport cars, imported cars, and cars in general are
sold, and the public is car nuts. Me included.

Third, it's a long, expensive trip to chase "perhaps" cars around the
country when the greater concentration of better condition Tigers is in
a specific region. Just economics and probability.

IMHO the real estate term "location, location, location" applies here
too. More enthusiasts bought more than 50% of all Tigers sold right on
the West Coast originally. The same, or similar nuts are here in greater
concentration, so the demand is higher. The supply of premium cars is
denser as well. In addition, there are plenty of enthusiasts who would
be glad to help out in a search or recommendation of a mechanic to check
it out - MANDATORY!!

Supply, Demand, Proximity. I think that sums up what you are seeing.
Economics 101, not snobbery. When you add the density of TAC'd vehicles
you are multiplying your chances of not getting ripped off. I am sure
the per capita density of Alpers is just as high, so care MUST be taken.

My $.02

Steve
--

Steve Laifman
Editor
TigersUnited.com

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted)

In a message dated 9/6/02 12:23:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
(email redacted) writes:

<< Folks, a nice Tiger
is a nice Tiger; it doesn't matter where in the country it is located. I
would readily put my Mk1A up against any other Tiger in the country as far
as quality is concerned. When put on a level playing field, i.e. equal
quality of cars, how can someone say that the Midwest car is worth less? >>
Andy,

I don't believe the issue of quality is being discussed at all. Rather it is
the market value being asked about. It is clear that what drives market
value is the perceived utility a buyer gets from a purchase via the amount
they have to fork over to get it. Perceived utility will vary based on
location - it applies to virtually all products. Look at housing prices -
the same house in New York or San Fran will cost considerably more than a
home in Melborune where I live. The laws of supply and demand drive the
price. The quality of a home has little to do with it. Same with Tigers.
How many people in an area are clamoring for a Tiger will affect the average
price. If there are fewer people in a Midwest town that will necessitate a
lower price. If you go national in a search, the the cost of car transport
enters the equation.

Rob

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Chris Hill" <(email redacted)>

Andy,
I don't want to seem nasty, but you're not being realistic. I brought my
well loved (and cared for) Healey 3000 out to Huntington Beach from Pa. and
watched it dissolve in the summer sun. I bought my first Tiger out of
McAllen, Texas (near Brownsville, on the Gulf coast) and I got REALLY
thoroughly into that car from underneath. It sits waiting for someone who
cares that much. The guy who owns the (very professional) restoration shop
that did my buddy's super nice Tiger is from the Philippines. He described
what salt air and road splash will do to even modern cars over there in a
short time (not pretty!). Ask Chris about his Hawaiian Tiger.
Salt corrosion is chemistry, pure and simple. A REALLY well cared for and
protected car from the Midwest might be worth as much as a So. Ca. car, but
how many people can truly document that sort of thing back to the mid '60's.
Wariness of salt belt cars is not peculiar to Tigers, nor is allowing for
problems then reflected in the bid price unique to them either.

Chris Hill

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Stu Brennan <(email redacted)>

I can second the salt comments. I was second owner of a 1970 FIAT 124
Spyder. A lovely car, but in the fall of 1972, the rocker panels
started to rust through. I'm in Massachusetts, and the first owner was
in the Navy. The salt was eating the thing up. The body shop guy said
he could make it look good, but I should sell it before it broke in
half.....

Stu