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Mail From: Steven silverstein <(email redacted)>

Sorry, the links were abbreviated. These should do better.

homepage.mac.com/johnwilson1942/sunbeam/index.html

homepage.mac.com/johnwilson1942/alpine/index.html




Steve
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Mail From: "Peter Laurinaitis" <(email redacted)>

will this photographer allow downloads of the pics, i would assume not, but
would love to save these as my desktop, etc.? i know you cant save them
from this link

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven silverstein" <(email redacted)>
To: <(email redacted)>
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 7:55 PM
Subject: [Tigers] Sunbeam period race photos


> Sorry, the links were abbreviated. These should do better.
>
> homepage.mac.com/johnwilson1942/sunbeam/index.html
>
> homepage.mac.com/johnwilson1942/alpine/index.html
>
>
>
>
> Steve
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Mail From: (email redacted)

No, I don't think he will allow down loads but you can purchase the prints of the images.

johnwilsonphoto.com/

Steve

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Peter Laurinaitis" <(email redacted)>

> will this photographer allow downloads of the pics, i would assume not, but
> would love to save these as my desktop, etc.? i know you cant save them
> from this link
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steven silverstein"
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 7:55 PM
> Subject: [Tigers] Sunbeam period race photos
>
>
> > Sorry, the links were abbreviated. These should do better.
> >
> > homepage.mac.com/johnwilson1942/sunbeam/index.html
> >
> > homepage.mac.com/johnwilson1942/alpine/index.html
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Steve
> > _______________________________________________
> > Support Team.Net team.net/donate.html
> >
> > You are subscribed as (email redacted)
> >
> > (email redacted)
> > autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers
> >
> > team.net/archive
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Mail From: "Paul R. Breuhan" <(email redacted)>

For a nice desktop picture...I like img1511..slide #5 of 61, the driver of the
#41 (or 91?) car "flipping the bird" to the Sunbeam!

Paul

> From: (email redacted)> To: (email redacted); (email redacted)>
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 17:10:16 +0000> Subject: Re: [Tigers] Sunbeam period
race photos> > No, I don't think he will allow down loads but you can purchase
the prints of the images.> > johnwilsonphoto.com/> > Steve> >
-------------- Original message -------------- > From: "Peter Laurinaitis"
<(email redacted)> > > > will this photographer allow downloads of the
pics, i would assume not, but > > would love to save these as my desktop,
etc.? i know you cant save them > > from this link > >
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Mail From: (email redacted)

In a message dated 1/31/2008 2:24:23 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
(email redacted) writes:

For a nice desktop picture...I like img1511..slide #5 of 61, the driver of
the
#41 (or 91?) car "flipping the bird" to the Sunbeam!




>From the angle of his hand, it looks like he is just giving the Tiger a
"point by", to indicate that he is leaving the inside open to facilitate
passing...the Porsche is pretty far off line, so that would be my guess...although,
your story is more entertaining!

Mike



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Mail From: drmayf <(email redacted)>

I agree with you, lol. I zoomed in on the picture and he is definitely
giving him the middle finger! Maybe he had to pass on the outside,
coming into the corner and he was pissed that the tiger did not allow
him to pass on the inside?

mayf

Paul R. Breuhan wrote:

>For a nice desktop picture...I like img1511..slide #5 of 61, the driver of the
>#41 (or 91?) car "flipping the bird" to the Sunbeam!
>
>Paul
>
>
>
>>From: (email redacted)> To: (email redacted); (email redacted)>
>>
>>
>Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 17:10:16 +0000> Subject: Re: [Tigers] Sunbeam period
>race photos> > No, I don't think he will allow down loads but you can purchase
>the prints of the images.> > johnwilsonphoto.com/> > Steve> >
>-------------- Original message -------------- > From: "Peter Laurinaitis"
><(email redacted)> > > > will this photographer allow downloads of the
>pics, i would assume not, but > > would love to save these as my desktop,
>etc.? i know you cant save them > > from this link > >
>_________________________________________________________________
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Mail From: (email redacted)

In a message dated 1/31/2008 5:23:12 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
(email redacted) writes:

I agree with you, lol. I zoomed in on the picture and he is definitely
giving him the middle finger! Maybe he had to pass on the outside,
coming into the corner and he was pissed that the tiger did not allow
him to pass on the inside?



That does make more sense than what I suggested...the Porsche would be much,
much quicker than the Sunbeam and I could see him in pursuit of the other
Porsche and getting blocked on turn in and being pissed!

Guess I need to have the old eyes examined... :-)

Well, in any case, those are some great pictures!

Mike



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Mail From: drmayf <(email redacted)>

Yes they are great photos! It was #55 in Santa Barbara at the airport
(actually Goleta), that was the impetus for me to get my car! That
sucker was romping and stomping just about everything there that day.
Incidentally that was teh same day that Honda introduced their 4
cylinder race bikes. They had 2 versions, a 250 cc and a 125 cc.
Japanese riders. They made the smaller 125 start after the bigger bikes
and within a few laps they had all bu caught up with their team 250
bikes well out in the lead. Was told that they could turn 20,000 rpm
with no problems (true? or not...) but they sounded like a bucket of
very angry bees when they went by..

mayf
(email redacted) wrote:

> In a message dated 1/31/2008 5:23:12 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
> (email redacted) writes:
>
> I agree with you, lol. I zoomed in on the picture and he is
> definitely
> giving him the middle finger! Maybe he had to pass on the outside,
> coming into the corner and he was pissed that the tiger did not allow
> him to pass on the inside?
>
> That does make more sense than what I suggested...the Porsche would be
> much, much quicker than the Sunbeam and I could see him in pursuit of
> the other Porsche and getting blocked on turn in and being pissed!
>
> Guess I need to have the old eyes examined... :-)
>
> Well, in any case, those are some great pictures!
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape
> <body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489>
> in the new year.
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Mail From: (email redacted)

In a message dated 1/31/2008 5:59:58 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
(email redacted) writes:

Yes they are great photos! It was #55 in Santa Barbara at the airport
(actually Goleta), that was the impetus for me to get my car! That
sucker was romping and stomping just about everything there that day.
Incidentally that was teh same day that Honda introduced their 4
cylinder race bikes. They had 2 versions, a 250 cc and a 125 cc.
Japanese riders. They made the smaller 125 start after the bigger bikes
and within a few laps they had all bu caught up with their team 250
bikes well out in the lead. Was told that they could turn 20,000 rpm
with no problems (true? or not...) but they sounded like a bucket of
very angry bees when they went by..



I didn't realize that with a "right click", you could zoom in on the
pictures...makes them even better and makes it obvious that you guys had it right,
904 driver giving the one finger salute!
The #55 is THE Tiger, as far as I'm concerned. Outside of the rally cars, it
was really the only race Tiger that got it done in a competitive
class...Doane Spencer was a real genius.

If I'm not mistaken, in 1966 the Honda 125 GP bike was a 5 cylinder. I could,
once again, be wrong ;-)
Anyhow, I believe 20,000rpm was real and that they also had 7 or 8 speed
transmissions, to keep them in the very narrow powerband, up top. They also did
some six cylinder GP bikes, back in the day, I think...

I may have to order a couple of those photos in B&W prints...they'd look
great in the office.

Mike



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Mail From: Sandy Ganz <(email redacted)>

Ahh, good clean racing ;-)

Sandy

----- Original Message ----
From: "(email redacted)" <(email redacted)>
To: (email redacted); (email redacted)
Cc: (email redacted); (email redacted)
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 5:30:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Sunbeam period race photos

In a message dated 1/31/2008 5:23:12 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
(email redacted) writes:

I agree with you, lol. I zoomed in on the picture and he is definitely
giving him the middle finger! Maybe he had to pass on the outside,
coming into the corner and he was pissed that the tiger did not allow
him to pass on the inside?



That does make more sense than what I suggested...the Porsche would be much,
much quicker than the Sunbeam and I could see him in pursuit of the other
Porsche and getting blocked on turn in and being pissed!

Guess I need to have the old eyes examined... :-)

Well, in any case, those are some great pictures!

Mike



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Mail From: "Taylor, Matthew" <(email redacted)>

The #55 is THE Tiger, as far as I'm concerned. Outside of the rally
cars, it
was really the only race Tiger that got it done in a competitive
class...Doane Spencer was a real genius.

Mike, do not forget about Gordon Chittenden's Tiger. With over 20
trophies and at least two national championships in two different
classes I'd say it was pretty competitive and might even make it the
winningest Tiger in competition--Still researching.

Matthew
STOA President
66 Tiger
65 Mustang Fastback
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In a message dated 2/1/2008 8:58:33 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
(email redacted) writes:

Mike, do not forget about Gordon Chittenden's Tiger. With over 20
trophies and at least two national championships in two different
classes I'd say it was pretty competitive and might even make it the
winningest Tiger in competition--Still researching.



How tough was the competition in XF/A, or whatever sports car class he was
running in AHRA? ;-)

Mike



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Mail From: "Taylor, Matthew" <(email redacted)>

How tough was the competition in XF/A, or whatever sports car class he
was running in AHRA? ;-)



>From my research, I'd say it was pretty tough competition, the same as
in any form of racing, and he only ran that class in 1965. There is a
ton of information on this subject in addition to a lot of Tiger history
and I'm still researching. I sent an email to this list asking for any
information and got nothing back, so apparently the information that I
have uncovered is not known by the majority of the people in the Tiger
community.



Matthew
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Mail From: (email redacted)

Mathew,

I agree whole heartedly with your statement, "so apparently the information that I have uncovered is not known by the majority of the people in the Tiger community."

Unfortunately, details and documentation regarding most Sunbeam racers in the US has been simply forgotten or lost over the years. There are exceptions, Jim Adams, Don Sesslar, Dan Carmichael, etc, but the real details have simply been lost. Hopefully, this information will be re-discovered and made public at some point. Either in a book or website.

I have really enjoyed chasing down the average "joe (sunbeam) club racer" just to hear what they had to say about racing during the period. I'll never forget one racer I talked with in the Mid-west. He went to the 67' ARRC and as he explained that year Datsun had their drivers send their cars to Daytona be tuned and dyno'd by Datsun factory support teams before the event. You could tell he was still pissed off about that level of support extended by competition!

Steve Silverstein
www.racingalpines.org
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In a message dated 2/1/2008 12:08:23 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
(email redacted) writes:

Mathew,

I agree whole heartedly with your statement, "so apparently the information
that I have uncovered is not known by the majority of the people in the Tiger
community."

Unfortunately, details and documentation regarding most Sunbeam racers in
the US has been simply forgotten or lost over the years. There are
exceptions, Jim Adams, Don Sesslar, Dan Carmichael, etc, but the real details have
simply been lost. Hopefully, this information will be re-discovered and made
public at some point. Either in a book or website.

I have really enjoyed chasing down the average "joe (sunbeam) club racer"
just to hear what they had to say about racing during the period. I'll never
forget one racer I talked with in the Mid-west. He went to the 67' ARRC and
as he explained that year Datsun had their drivers send their cars to Daytona
be tuned and dyno'd by Datsun factory support teams before the event. You
could tell he was still pissed off about that level of support extended by
competition!






Is it likely the significance attached to this information has grown with
the increased interest in collecting and racing vintage cars? I would suggest
that the reason the "information...uncovered" is not widely known is because,
up to this point, it was never seen as significant.

The AHRA records from the '60s have always been available, as have SCCA
results...the only thing that has changed is people's level of interest in them,
primarily as a means to make that special car even more "special" ;-)

I hope this doesn't sound cynical, it is not meant in that way. I have gone
through the process of restoring and racing a couple of vintage formula cars
and agree that the research and stories that result add immeasurably to the
whole experience. These cars were definitely campaigned in a "golden era" of
automobile racing!





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Mail From: (email redacted)

Actually, SCCA results and records are very limited. After 1964, SCCA national changed the method of record keeping (according to Pete Hilton) and the Regions became the primary record keepers. Long term conservation of these records by the Regions is spotty at best.

Steve
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In a message dated 2/1/2008 12:39:44 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
(email redacted) writes:

Actually, SCCA results and records are very limited. After 1964, SCCA
national changed the method of record keeping (according to Pete Hilton) and the
Regions became the primary record keepers. Long term conservation of these
records by the Regions is spotty at best.


I went through that with a Crusader Formula Vee that was just a
regional/local nationals type runner..and, that's with SFR being pretty darn good with
archives. Fortunately, the builder was (and still is) alive and had detailed
records of his cars' performance, owners and other stuff. I've also had luck
finding people locally who have kept hard copy of years and years of the SCCA's
regional publication (The Wheel, out here), listing race results, and found
that helpful.

For the Chittenden car, seeing as it was local to this area, I suggested to
Matthew trying to go through the local network and nostalgia drag racing
associations to try to find that "pack rat" who has kept all the old hard copy...











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Mail From: Steve Laifman <(email redacted)>

Mike and Tigers,

A good deal of the racing records set by Ken Miles (in his MG Specials)
were west coast racing under the auspices of CSCC,
California Sports Car Club, at venues such as Goleta and Torrey Pines.
Ken was President of CSCC for some time. Because of the dominance of
the CSCC in club racing, SCCA did not sponsor many events in this state.

Out of state races were dominated by SCCA, and west coast racers had
dual memberships. Maybe the "Cal Club" records are still available.

Steve

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(email redacted) wrote:
> In a message dated 2/1/2008 12:39:44 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
> (email redacted) writes:
>
> Actually, SCCA results and records are very limited. After 1964, SCCA
> national changed the method of record keeping (according to Pete Hilton) and the
> Regions became the primary record keepers. Long term conservation of these
> records by the Regions is spotty at best.
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