Tigers List Archive

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Steve Laifman <(email redacted)>

Tim Jordan wrote:
>
> Steve said,
>
> "> Roger,
> >
> > I was, and it does. Some, however, are not pictured. Will be glad to do
> > so as soon as I can get someone to donate some pictures, but the
> > complete Dealer Catalog is there.
>
> The complete Dealer Catalog does not match the list of LAT options on your
> website. Where are you coming up with the "other/new" LAT options? I think
> Hell will freeze before you find pictures and documents referring to those
> "other LAT alpha" designations. An outside vendor offering a "goodie" for
> the Tiger did not automatically include it as a part of the Rootes sponsered
> LAT program. I thought that the LAT program was very specific and the other
> options were either Factory Accessories or outside vendor supplies and not a
> part of the LAT program?

Answer to ALL doubters:

1) I have cited my references (TBON) for the non-Rootes LAT designations
when the spark-plug behind the LAT options program (Wheatly) left the
distributor and went to work for Traction Masters, developing new Tiger
performance equipment and, rightly or wrongfully, identifying them with
LAT designations. Subject documented and hopefully closed.

2) "Tiger, An Exceptional Motor Car, William Carroll, Auto Book Press,
Oct. 1978, page 54: Extracted from a letter by Ian Garrad to the SCCA
on October 11, 1965"

After describing the changes the Tiger design specifications were going
through, including upgrades from Ford on the original 260, such as
rocker pivot studs, first gear ratio, valve sizes, the new top loader
transmission, etc. Ian goes on to state:

"We also draw your attention to the fact that there are available,
from our Parts Department, performance kits made up of Ford parts,
several hundred of which have already been sold this year to date.
These kits, LAT-1 through LAT-71, include four-barrel carburation, solid
lifters, dual-point ignition, screw-in rocker pivot studs, and high
performance options. These kits have been available since the
introduction of the Tiger last year and are supplied to dealers via the
Parts Department of Rootes. In the Los Angeles area, kits are installed
prior to delivery to dealers," Ian's letter to the SCCA concluded.

Los Angeles Tigers (LAT) Options were installed by Rootes at their main
Service Depot, in Long Island, New York; or at the West Coast warehouse
in Long Beach, California...."

It goes on to list the LAT options by number and description.

So, MY sources are William Carroll and his quotations from the official
letter by Ian Garrad to the SCCA.

Maybe there were LIT Tigers after all?

I certainly hope this puts an end to accusations that I make-up stories
that are not true, or are from uncertain sources. If anyone still has an
issue with this, please take it up with William Carroll, Norman Miller,
or the SCCA archives.

Truth and honesty in all matters, to the best of my knowledge. You have
your references, if you had read them. If not, why not defer to those
that do.

Steve

--
____________________________
Steve Laifman
Editor
<TigersUnited.com>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Marc James Small <(email redacted)>

At 01:28 PM 1/2/02 -0800, Steve Laifman wrote:
>I certainly hope this puts an end to accusations that I make-up stories
>that are not true, or are from uncertain sources. If anyone still has an
>issue with this, please take it up with William Carroll, Norman Miller,
>or the SCCA archives.
>
>Truth and honesty in all matters, to the best of my knowledge. You have
>your references, if you had read them. If not, why not defer to those
>that do.

Steve

To me, it seems that you have over-reacted a bit. No one has accused you
of anything; folks have simpy asked to have the full story provided them
in one swell foop, and you have done that most magnificently. Most of
those on the List have neither the Book of Norman nor Shelby's volume to
consult, and, therefore, nailing this down in detail is of some interest to
us all.

Thanks for your hard efforts to document the saga of the LAT options.

Marc

(email redacted) FAX: +540/343-7315
Cha robh b`s fir gun ghr`s fir!

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Larry Paulick <(email redacted)>

Steve, AMEN.

Larry

Steve Laifman wrote:

> Tim Jordan wrote:
> >
> > Steve said,
> >
> > "> Roger,
> > >
> > > I was, and it does. Some, however, are not pictured. Will be glad to do
> > > so as soon as I can get someone to donate some pictures, but the
> > > complete Dealer Catalog is there.
> >
> > The complete Dealer Catalog does not match the list of LAT options on your
> > website. Where are you coming up with the "other/new" LAT options? I think
> > Hell will freeze before you find pictures and documents referring to those
> > "other LAT alpha" designations. An outside vendor offering a "goodie" for
> > the Tiger did not automatically include it as a part of the Rootes sponsered
> > LAT program. I thought that the LAT program was very specific and the other
> > options were either Factory Accessories or outside vendor supplies and not a
> > part of the LAT program?
>
> Answer to ALL doubters:
>
> 1) I have cited my references (TBON) for the non-Rootes LAT designations
> when the spark-plug behind the LAT options program (Wheatly) left the
> distributor and went to work for Traction Masters, developing new Tiger
> performance equipment and, rightly or wrongfully, identifying them with
> LAT designations. Subject documented and hopefully closed.
>
> 2) "Tiger, An Exceptional Motor Car, William Carroll, Auto Book Press,
> Oct. 1978, page 54: Extracted from a letter by Ian Garrad to the SCCA
> on October 11, 1965"
>
> After describing the changes the Tiger design specifications were going
> through, including upgrades from Ford on the original 260, such as
> rocker pivot studs, first gear ratio, valve sizes, the new top loader
> transmission, etc. Ian goes on to state:
>
> "We also draw your attention to the fact that there are available,
> from our Parts Department, performance kits made up of Ford parts,
> several hundred of which have already been sold this year to date.
> These kits, LAT-1 through LAT-71, include four-barrel carburation, solid
> lifters, dual-point ignition, screw-in rocker pivot studs, and high
> performance options. These kits have been available since the
> introduction of the Tiger last year and are supplied to dealers via the
> Parts Department of Rootes. In the Los Angeles area, kits are installed
> prior to delivery to dealers," Ian's letter to the SCCA concluded.
>
> Los Angeles Tigers (LAT) Options were installed by Rootes at their main
> Service Depot, in Long Island, New York; or at the West Coast warehouse
> in Long Beach, California...."
>
> It goes on to list the LAT options by number and description.
>
> So, MY sources are William Carroll and his quotations from the official
> letter by Ian Garrad to the SCCA.
>
> Maybe there were LIT Tigers after all?
>
> I certainly hope this puts an end to accusations that I make-up stories
> that are not true, or are from uncertain sources. If anyone still has an
> issue with this, please take it up with William Carroll, Norman Miller,
> or the SCCA archives.
>
> Truth and honesty in all matters, to the best of my knowledge. You have
> your references, if you had read them. If not, why not defer to those
> that do.
>
> Steve
>
> --
> ____________________________
> Steve Laifman
> Editor
> <TigersUnited.com>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Tim Jordan" <(email redacted)>

Gentlemen,

Just frickin' GREAT!!! The list can be abused for days on end with
non-Tiger crap, ie.(The Prisoner TV show, how to weld, gas prices,
insurance, metallurgy, girl next door fantasies, the weather etc.) and now
we have a self-appointed moderator to tell us when a genuine Tiger
discussion should be CONCLUDED! I am not surprised that several Tiger
Historians/experts have decided to leave the list to the few who still try
to dominate.
I don't believe there is just one Tiger expert on the list. Some may not
be that knowledgeable, but have documents or some reference on a particular
detail of the Tiger story. They had it with the few who seem to think they
and only they have the only correct answers to the entire Tiger saga.

Do you believe Robson when he states in his Tiger/Alpine effort that " this
rather large chap wielding the largest mallet I have ever seen, whacking the
transmission tunnel to make room for the Ford V8 unit". Must be true
because it says so in his book. We know this is not true and that Jenson
had a transmission tunnel piece stamped out and ready to weld in. For
several decades and in many publications, writers have stated that Carroll
Shelby saw the COBRA name in a dream. I recently read an interview where
he said that was completely false.

Instead of concluding the discussion, why not ask for some other references
from the Tiger Listers. Any original owners out there who purchased their
Tiger with the LAT options already installed on the car in the showroom.
Did any original buyers have to wait for the Tiger to go from the dealer
back to the Rootes warehouse for LAT installations. Was there a form to
fill out detailing what LAT options were to be installed. Since the only
documentation is a letter, why not try to dig a little deeper for some
additional information. It is not implausable for Ian to do "ALL" he could
to get any advantage for his Tiger in racing. Could he have told the racing
boards one thing and because of cost and time done another. The original
owner of the MKII I purchased this year, said he waited in the showroom
while the dealer installed LAT 70 wheels(including the spare). How did
Rootes decide which Tigers would receive what LAT options? They have 400
Tigers on the dock in Long Beach, now what do we do? Do they send them all
out to the dealers only to have many come back for 1, 2 or several LAT
options?

Try to get more documentation before we "create" factual history.

tjj

----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Paulick" <(email redacted)>
To: "Steve Laifman" <(email redacted)>
Cc: "Tim Jordan" <(email redacted)>; "tigers"
<(email redacted)>
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 3:42 AM
Subject: Re: LAT Options - CONCLUDED!


> Steve, AMEN.
>
> Larry
>
> Steve Laifman wrote:
>
> > Tim Jordan wrote:
> > >
> > > Steve said,
> > >
> > > "> Roger,
> > > >
> > > > I was, and it does. Some, however, are not pictured. Will be glad to
do
> > > > so as soon as I can get someone to donate some pictures, but the
> > > > complete Dealer Catalog is there.
> > >
> > > The complete Dealer Catalog does not match the list of LAT options on
your
> > > website. Where are you coming up with the "other/new" LAT options? I
think
> > > Hell will freeze before you find pictures and documents referring to
those
> > > "other LAT alpha" designations. An outside vendor offering a "goodie"
for
> > > the Tiger did not automatically include it as a part of the Rootes
sponsered
> > > LAT program. I thought that the LAT program was very specific and the
other
> > > options were either Factory Accessories or outside vendor supplies and
not a
> > > part of the LAT program?
> >
> > Answer to ALL doubters:
> >
> > 1) I have cited my references (TBON) for the non-Rootes LAT designations
> > when the spark-plug behind the LAT options program (Wheatly) left the
> > distributor and went to work for Traction Masters, developing new Tiger
> > performance equipment and, rightly or wrongfully, identifying them with
> > LAT designations. Subject documented and hopefully closed.
> >
> > 2) "Tiger, An Exceptional Motor Car, William Carroll, Auto Book Press,
> > Oct. 1978, page 54: Extracted from a letter by Ian Garrad to the SCCA
> > on October 11, 1965"
> >
> > After describing the changes the Tiger design specifications were going
> > through, including upgrades from Ford on the original 260, such as
> > rocker pivot studs, first gear ratio, valve sizes, the new top loader
> > transmission, etc. Ian goes on to state:
> >
> > "We also draw your attention to the fact that there are available,
> > from our Parts Department, performance kits made up of Ford parts,
> > several hundred of which have already been sold this year to date.
> > These kits, LAT-1 through LAT-71, include four-barrel carburation, solid
> > lifters, dual-point ignition, screw-in rocker pivot studs, and high
> > performance options. These kits have been available since the
> > introduction of the Tiger last year and are supplied to dealers via the
> > Parts Department of Rootes. In the Los Angeles area, kits are installed
> > prior to delivery to dealers," Ian's letter to the SCCA concluded.
> >
> > Los Angeles Tigers (LAT) Options were installed by Rootes at their main
> > Service Depot, in Long Island, New York; or at the West Coast warehouse
> > in Long Beach, California...."
> >
> > It goes on to list the LAT options by number and description.
> >
> > So, MY sources are William Carroll and his quotations from the official
> > letter by Ian Garrad to the SCCA.
> >
> > Maybe there were LIT Tigers after all?
> >
> > I certainly hope this puts an end to accusations that I make-up stories
> > that are not true, or are from uncertain sources. If anyone still has an
> > issue with this, please take it up with William Carroll, Norman Miller,
> > or the SCCA archives.
> >
> > Truth and honesty in all matters, to the best of my knowledge. You have
> > your references, if you had read them. If not, why not defer to those
> > that do.
> >
> > Steve
> >
> > --
> > ____________________________
> > Steve Laifman
> > Editor
> > <TigersUnited.com>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted)

Get over it, find a new list, walk west till your hat floats or anything else
that blows air up your dress, it's only a car and this is not a cult of
owners. If you don't like the list, at least have manners and class enough to
ignore this insignificant list that is full of so many errors and individuals
that are trying to harm us with their knowledge.

As for me the delete key does wonders..... delete and you're gone in less
than 60 seconds.

For those I offend (except the intended party) I apologize, but I've had it
with the flamers!

Moonstone

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Allan Connell, Jr." <(email redacted)>

No offense here. Thank you and AMEN!

Allan

-----Original Message-----
From: (email redacted) [mailtoemail redacted)]On
Behalf Of (email redacted)
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 9:38 PM
To: (email redacted); (email redacted); (email redacted)
Cc: (email redacted)
Subject: Re: LAT Options - CONCLUDED!

Get over it, find a new list, walk west till your hat floats or anything
else
that blows air up your dress, it's only a car and this is not a cult of
owners. If you don't like the list, at least have manners and class enough
to
ignore this insignificant list that is full of so many errors and
individuals
that are trying to harm us with their knowledge.

As for me the delete key does wonders..... delete and you're gone in less
than 60 seconds.

For those I offend (except the intended party) I apologize, but I've had it
with the flamers!

Moonstone

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Tim Jordan" <(email redacted)>

Allan,
No offense taken or given.

tjj

----- Original Message -----
From: "Allan Connell, Jr." <(email redacted)>
To: <(email redacted)>; <(email redacted)>; <(email redacted)>;
<(email redacted)>
Cc: <(email redacted)>
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 11:01 AM
Subject: RE: LAT Options - CONCLUDED!


> No offense here. Thank you and AMEN!
>
> Allan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: (email redacted) [mailtoemail redacted)]On
> Behalf Of (email redacted)
> Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 9:38 PM
> To: (email redacted); (email redacted); (email redacted)
> Cc: (email redacted)
> Subject: Re: LAT Options - CONCLUDED!
>
> Get over it, find a new list, walk west till your hat floats or anything
> else
> that blows air up your dress, it's only a car and this is not a cult of
> owners. If you don't like the list, at least have manners and class enough
> to
> ignore this insignificant list that is full of so many errors and
> individuals
> that are trying to harm us with their knowledge.
>
> As for me the delete key does wonders..... delete and you're gone in less
> than 60 seconds.
>
> For those I offend (except the intended party) I apologize, but I've had
it
> with the flamers!
>
> Moonstone

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Roger Brother" <(email redacted)>

ok - you guys win see ya


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