Tigers List Archive

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted)

After reading a recent article on a Corvette it caused me to do some
thinking. How is it that a 3500lb.(approx.) Corvette with 400 HP can get 32 mpg on
the highway and a 2500 lb. Tiger with 164 HP can only manage 22mpg?
I realize that the Vet will have a fuel management system which should be
much better than a carb. and the cleaner front lines of the Vet will be much
better for drag than a Tiger, but.......
When a few people have switched a fairly modern Ford 5.0 (fuel injected)
engine into their Tiger, I've never heard them brag of 30 mpg.
And sure, the Tiger is like a brick wall as far as design goes, but it's not
like a van or a big truck. The aerodynamics might be terrible, but this is
still a pretty small car and the frontal area is not huge.
Also, I think the Vet is 6 speed with double overdrive. I imagine that at
road speed this thing isn't much above idle...maybe 1,400 rpm? By today's
standards our Tiger is really winding at 3,000 rpm at 70mph.
So, what is the Vet's secret? Is it just a combination of many small things
adding up to create efficiency?




**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)
_______________________________________________

(email redacted)
autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Stephen Waybright <(email redacted)>

The gearing is a big part of it, and the drag coefficient compared to a
Tiger as well, but as much as I hate to say it, my impression is that
GM has done an incredible job optimizing the efficiency of the good ol'
smallblock pushrod V8.

I mean really... my Miata does not get 32 mpg highway, (though I'm sure
some do).

--- (email redacted) wrote:

> After reading a recent article on a Corvette it caused me to do some
>
> thinking. How is it that a 3500lb.(approx.) Corvette with 400 HP can
> get 32 mpg on
> the highway and a 2500 lb. Tiger with 164 HP can only manage 22mpg?
> I realize that the Vet will have a fuel management system which
> should be
> much better than a carb. and the cleaner front lines of the Vet will
> be much
> better for drag than a Tiger, but.......
> When a few people have switched a fairly modern Ford 5.0 (fuel
> injected)
> engine into their Tiger, I've never heard them brag of 30 mpg.
> And sure, the Tiger is like a brick wall as far as design goes, but
> it's not
> like a van or a big truck. The aerodynamics might be terrible, but
> this is
> still a pretty small car and the frontal area is not huge.
> Also, I think the Vet is 6 speed with double overdrive. I imagine
> that at
> road speed this thing isn't much above idle...maybe 1,400 rpm? By
> today's
> standards our Tiger is really winding at 3,000 rpm at 70mph.
> So, what is the Vet's secret? Is it just a combination of many
> small things
> adding up to create efficiency?
>
>
>
>
> **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
> (food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)
> _______________________________________________
> (email redacted)
>
> (email redacted)
> autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers
_______________________________________________

(email redacted)
autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: <(email redacted)>

I have found that new technology in fuel and engine control improves MPG. My
2005 Triumph Rocket 3 motorcycle(2300cc) gets up to 50mpg, the same as my
1973 Norton 750 Commando. The Rocket 3 produces 140hp(electronically
limited) and 147 ft. lbs. torque. The Norton produced 60 hp at the crank.
Never checked the torque. Gary
_______________________________________________

(email redacted)
autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Smit, Theo" <(email redacted)>

For a highway test it's not about the horsepower rating of your engine,
it's how much power you need to get down the road at 55 mph (or whatever
the speed is), plus driveline friction and other incidentals.
- The Corvette probably has half the drag of a Tiger, especially if the
top is down on the Tiger.
- The gearing makes a difference because the ring friction, etc. is a
function of engine speed.

Other things probably make less difference. A late model 5.0 can be had
(if you build it that way) with low-tension rings, full roller
valvetrain, efficient water pump, alternator, windage tray etc., all of
which will help reduce drag and parasitic power loss, so that would
likely be equivalent to the best you can do in the 'vette. Similarly,
you can dial in a carburetor to be equally lean as a fuel injection
system; it's just a lot harder to do, and won't be as adaptable. When I
get the BossEFI system on the road I'll let you know how that pans
out... It has full-on closed loop capability as well as timing control
for engine speed and vacuum.

I have an Echo as my commuter car, and as a factory-built mileage miser,
they've done some pretty trick stuff.
- 0.29 drag coefficient. Not great, but not bad for a small 4-seater
where 6-footers can fit both front and rear. The trunk is huge.
- About 2100 pounds curb weight. Pretty light for today's standards
where every car has good sound insulation and interior trim.
- Non-return fuel line. The thinking here is to prevent heated fuel
going back to the tank and causing undue evaporation (it's a sealed tank
anyway, but every little bit helps)
- Stainless fabricated header for lighter weight and to reduce heat loss
going to the catalytic converter. This helps get the system into
closed-loop sooner, thereby saving fuel.
- Composite intake manifold for reduced heat conduction to the intake
air, and the injectors
- Offset crankshaft (relative to the cylinder bores) to reduce side
loading during the power stroke
- 10.5:1 max static compression with variable valve timing - the intake
cam can be retarded up to 60 degrees via a hydraulic control system, to
optimize actual compression and broaden the torque curve.
Nothing that, by itself, will make a big dent, but all the little things
do add up.

Best mileage I've achieved is 760 km on about 40.3 liters of gas,
driving my normal commute-to-work route (which involves a 2 mile, 8%
uphill grade on the way home).
That's 43.3 miles per US gallon. Since the engine is rated at 108 hp,
it's not exactly a rocket, but it's got better power-to-weight than an
early Miata.

Theo
_______________________________________________

(email redacted)
autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted)

In a message dated 12/20/2007 9:51:53 AM Eastern Standard Time,
(email redacted) writes:

For a highway test it's not about the horsepower rating of your engine,
it's how much power you need to get down the road at 55 mph (or whatever
Is the drag coefficient based on an over-all model and size or is it just a
measurement of the efficiency of the car being tested. In other words would
a large SUV that had a drag coefficient of say -0.50 have the same efficiency
as a Vet that also had a -0.50? Or is the larger vehicle still going to push
more air and therefore require more energy?
M



**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)
_______________________________________________

(email redacted)
autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Peter Stanisavljevich" <(email redacted)>

Perhaps the biggest gain came from study of flame propagation in the
combustion chamber (Thermal Enginerring?). Honda did some ground
breaking work in the 1960's for their racing motorcycles.

If you can more fully ignite the gasoline in the chamber, thereby
drawing more energy from the fuel burned, you would need less fuel to
produce the same power.

Remember, the technology in the 260/289 predates color TV. Since then
exotic features like hemispherical heads and 4 valves per cylinder have
become common place. Not to mention, very precise, electronically
controlled ignition and engine management systems.

Interesting reading on the subject is "The Internal-combustion Engine in
Theory and Practice - (volume 2)" By Charles Fayette Taylor

ps
_______________________________________________

(email redacted)
autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Smit, Theo" <(email redacted)>

The drag coefficient is a ratiometric number. To determine the actual
drag force you have to multiply by the effective frontal area of the
vehicle (and the square of the speed, etc.). So the 'vette, with less
than half the frontal area of a SUV, will have half the drag of the SUV,
even if the drag coefficient was the same. Lowering the car reduces the
effective frontal area. This is one reason why lake speedsters are
lowered right down to the salt.

Theo

________________________________

From: (email redacted) [mailtoemail redacted)]
Sent: December 20, 2007 8:05 AM
To: Smit, Theo; (email redacted)
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Gas mileage


In a message dated 12/20/2007 9:51:53 AM Eastern Standard Time,
(email redacted) writes:

For a highway test it's not about the horsepower rating of your
engine,
it's how much power you need to get down the road at 55 mph (or
whatever

Is the drag coefficient based on an over-all model and size or is it
just a measurement of the efficiency of the car being tested. In other
words would a large SUV that had a drag coefficient of say -0.50 have
the same efficiency as a Vet that also had a -0.50? Or is the larger
vehicle still going to push more air and therefore require more energy?
M



________________________________

See AOL's top rated recipes
<food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004> and
easy ways to stay in shape
<body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aoltop00030000000003>
for winter.
_______________________________________________

(email redacted)
autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted)

Theo, thanks. I guess that was part of my original point. Although the
Tiger is probably a brick moving through the air, it still has a pretty small
frontal area.



**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)
_______________________________________________

(email redacted)
autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Thomas Witt" <(email redacted)>

Mileage can be a mystery.
I had a 260 Falcon that that I did everything to enhance mileage. The best
I ever got was 21 MPG going 50 MPH. A friends mom had a much heavier Montego
with a 302 and got 24 MPG going 65 MPH. Go figure.

My '91 Mazda 323 buzzes at 3,000 RPM and if I drive 55-60 MPH I get 43-45
MPG. So, in all these cases engine size, vehicle weight and RPM don't seem
to add up right. My '73 Valiant won't get over 14.7 MPG - PERIOD. Changed
the heads to swirl port, mileage cam, dialed in Edelbrock carb., Edelbrock
Performer intake, - drive like "Granny." Doesn't matter 14.7 MPG. Others
claim their heavier Mopar Lux-O-Boats get 20-24 MPG. Again, go figure.

I would love for a TV show to find two identical cars, - with significantly
different mileage. Pull them apart and determine why the difference.

Tom
_______________________________________________

(email redacted)
autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Tom Hall <(email redacted)>

At 05:51 AM 12/20/2007, you wrote:
>After reading a recent article on a Corvette it caused me to do some
>thinking. How is it that a 3500lb.(approx.) Corvette with 400 HP
>can get 32 mpg on
>the highway and a 2500 lb. Tiger with 164 HP can only manage 22mpg?
>I realize that the Vet will have a fuel management system which should be
>much better than a carb. and the cleaner front lines of the Vet will be much
>better for drag than a Tiger, but.......snip

My early 302 roller cam with a 5 speed and 2.88 gears routinely pulls
26+ mpg at freeway speeds. Cruises comfortably and quietly at about
1900 RPM at 70. The other secrets involve carb sizing and jetting
along with tuned mechanical and vacuum advance. Power wise it's
likely a little short of 300 HP, but it's no slouch. Most of my 5
speed customers gain at least 5mpg at cruse speeds over the top
loader with no other changes. I'm going to work on my 5 speed,
stock 260 Tiger's tuning to see if I can get it in to the 30mpg range.

Tom Hall
ModTiger Engineering LLC
www.tigerengineering.net
_______________________________________________

(email redacted)
autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Steve Laifman <(email redacted)>

Lot's of talk about gas mileage. My father used to tell me "Show me
someone who knows his gas mileage, and I will show you a failure in life."

Of course, that was when gas was $0.25/gallon.

On the other hand, in the mid '50's I entered a Gas Mileage rally from
Los Angeles to Santa Barbara with my MG-TD.

The MG, usually, gets terrible mileage because you had to thrash it to
death to beat the little old lady's Chevvie 6. And she didn't even know
we were racing! On this rally (MG CAR CLUB OF AMERICA) I took first
place at 42 mpg.

What was the secret? It will work today!

Start out from the start line verrry slowly. Drive as if you had a raw
egg between your foot and the accelerator pedal. Accelerate to about 20
mph slowly, shifting at low to moderate rpm. Be just short of killing
the engine. Maintain this speed without pressure or stopping - Game the
stop lights. Start decelerating way before the stop, if you can't time
it. Turn OFF the engine at every stop, until the light has changed.
Put cotton in your ears so you don't hear the horns or yelling from
surrounding cars!

Does it work? I have the trophy. Is it fun? About as much fun as
driving of a winding road into a canyon, which is at least a thrill -
until the sudden stop. :-D

Steve

___
Steve Laifman
Editor - TigersUnited.com
_______________________________________________

(email redacted)
autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted)

Steve,
It's much easier today....take a 4200 lb. full sized car.....Caddy or big
Mercedes, get it up to 65-70 mph, set the cruise control and get 26-28 mpg.
Pretty amazing and it will only get better with the latest Federal initiative.
Of course, no matter what the politicians and environmental people tell us,
we won't save money. The cars will cost more and the price of gas will have
to rise so the fuel suppliers can get the same gross.
I remember talking to the owner of a gas/service station in the late 1960's.
This is when a big car got 12-14 mpg and gas cost about 35 cents. I told
him I heard that full sized cars were under development that, in the future,
would get 25 mpg. He said that he believed it, but to mark his word, when
that day came the price of gas would be over $3 per gallon. He said the fuel
companies are not going to take lower profits regardless. What foresight that
man had.
M



**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)
_______________________________________________

(email redacted)
autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Sandy Ganz <(email redacted)>

Yes, good foresight!

If people are looking for better mileage, how about an Alpine engine swap into your Tiger's ;-)

Technology had done some amazing things to help move the mpg up on cars and still have great performance. One thing that also has become much better is the reduction of polution while still cranking out high mileage and high performance cars.

When I drive the Tiger it makes me feel back to the roots of the automobile simple, fixable, and fun.

Sandy



----- Original Message ----
From: "(email redacted)" <(email redacted)>
To: (email redacted); (email redacted)
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:38:50 AM
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Gas mileage

Steve,
It's much easier today....take a 4200 lb. full sized car.....Caddy or big
Mercedes, get it up to 65-70 mph, set the cruise control and get 26-28 mpg.
Pretty amazing and it will only get better with the latest Federal initiative.
Of course, no matter what the politicians and environmental people tell us,
we won't save money. The cars will cost more and the price of gas will have
to rise so the fuel suppliers can get the same gross.
I remember talking to the owner of a gas/service station in the late 1960's.
This is when a big car got 12-14 mpg and gas cost about 35 cents. I told
him I heard that full sized cars were under development that, in the future,
would get 25 mpg. He said that he believed it, but to mark his word, when
that day came the price of gas would be over $3 per gallon. He said the fuel
companies are not going to take lower profits regardless. What foresight that
man had.
M



**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)
_______________________________________________
(email redacted)

(email redacted)
autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers
_______________________________________________

(email redacted)
autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Steinman, Bill" <(email redacted)>

I only have a passing interest in the mileage of my old cars -- I
casually monitor it to see if it's really bad, then I say to myself
"huh, must be running a bit rich." )



Bill S.
2005 Lotus Elise
1968 Triumph TR-250
1968 MGC Tourer
1965 Sunbeam Tiger
1965 Austin Healey 3000 Mk III
www.TR-250.com

Tedious but unavoidable disclaimer follows...


NOTICE: This communication may contain privileged or other confidential
information. If you are not the intended recipient, or believe that you have
received this communication in error, please do not print, copy, retransmit,
disseminate, or otherwise use the information. Also, please indicate to the
sender that you have received this communication in error, and delete the copy
you received.

IRS CIRCULAR 230 Disclosure: Under U.S. Treasury regulations, we are required
to inform you that any tax advice contained in this e-mail or any attachment
hereto is not intended to be used, and cannot be used, to avoid penalties
imposed under the Internal Revenue Code.

Thank you.
_______________________________________________

(email redacted)
autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted)

In a message dated 12/20/2007 12:58:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,
(email redacted) writes:

My early 302 roller cam with a 5 speed and 2.88 gears routinely pulls 26+
mpg at



Tom,
Thanks for that bit of information. That was my next question...if someone
with a stock 260 and 5 speed found better mileage. I think we would love to
find out if you can come up with near 30 mpg and how you do it.



**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)
_______________________________________________

(email redacted)
autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Kirk Smith" <(email redacted)>

About 35 years ago my boss told me that men always lie about 2 things: Their
sex life and their gas mileage

Kirk
B382000503
_______________________________________________

(email redacted)
autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted)

In a message dated 12/20/2007 4:42:00 PM Eastern Standard Time,
(email redacted) writes:

About 35 years ago my boss told me that men always lie about 2 things:
Their
sex life and their gas mileage




LOL, LOL



**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)
_______________________________________________

(email redacted)
autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "William Lau" <(email redacted)>

My dad (born 1908) said the same thing about his Model A. When cars got
hydraulic lifters and you had to adjust them while the car was running he
couldn't accept it. Even worse about 10 years later we had EGR valves. What
will automobiles become? - Bill --







When I drive the Tiger it makes me feel back to the roots of the automobile
simple, fixable, and fun.



Sandy
_______________________________________________

(email redacted)
autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Chris Thompson <(email redacted)>

I knew you were going to say that Steve - I remember it well from years ago.

I don't know the gas mileage of any of my dozen cars, although I do know
the mileage on my F-250 s*cks.

Don't ask me about my sex life ;-)

Chris

Steve Laifman wrote:
> Lot's of talk about gas mileage. My father used to tell me "Show me
> someone who knows his gas mileage, and I will show you a failure in life."
_______________________________________________

(email redacted)
autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers