Alpines List Archive

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted)

As long as we are on the topic of Italian machines, a few people have
commented about the Ferrari connection with the Alpine. I know I've read
about it here and there. But, I don't recall ever seeing anything more
than that Lord Rootes was a friendly acquaintance with Ferrari. That they
met in Italy to discuss some sort of engine supply and that by the time
Rootes got back to England, Ferrari decided not to do anything. In the
Langworth book, he says the deal with Ferrari was in 1962. He says that
the Dino V6 was possibly the engine under consideration. I seem to recall
a mention of an Alfa Romeo engine possibility. I presume that even though
Ferrari first worked at Alfa Romeo, in the 60's there was no relationship
between the companies. Is it Fiat owned now too? So, it wasn't the Alfa
engine that Ferrari was going to supply, right? Which books or articles
discuss this more? What are the other details? I seem to remember a
napkin being part of the story.

Jay

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Mail From: John Stanco <(email redacted)>

It seems that all the best deals or ideas are first placed on a napkin.

-----Original Message-----
From: (email redacted) [mailtoemail redacted)]
Sent: Monday, October 30, 2000 11:57 AM
To: (email redacted)
Subject: Ferrari in an Alpine


As long as we are on the topic of Italian machines, a few people have
commented about the Ferrari connection with the Alpine. I know I've read
about it here and there. But, I don't recall ever seeing anything more
than that Lord Rootes was a friendly acquaintance with Ferrari. That they
met in Italy to discuss some sort of engine supply and that by the time
Rootes got back to England, Ferrari decided not to do anything. In the
Langworth book, he says the deal with Ferrari was in 1962. He says that
the Dino V6 was possibly the engine under consideration. I seem to recall
a mention of an Alfa Romeo engine possibility. I presume that even though
Ferrari first worked at Alfa Romeo, in the 60's there was no relationship
between the companies. Is it Fiat owned now too? So, it wasn't the Alfa
engine that Ferrari was going to supply, right? Which books or articles
discuss this more? What are the other details? I seem to remember a
napkin being part of the story.

Jay

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted)

Hi Jay:
I seem to recall (I can't find it written down anywhere--drat!)that
early or mid-'60's Rootes had approached Ferrari to design a cylinder
head for the alpine.
At some time talks broke down and that was that.


Regards
David Sosna

(email redacted) wrote:
>
> As long as we are on the topic of Italian machines, a few people have
> commented about the Ferrari connection with the Alpine. I know I've read
> about it here and there. But, I don't recall ever seeing anything more
> than that Lord Rootes was a friendly acquaintance with Ferrari. That they
> met in Italy to discuss some sort of engine supply and that by the time
> Rootes got back to England, Ferrari decided not to do anything. In the
> Langworth book, he says the deal with Ferrari was in 1962. He says that
> the Dino V6 was possibly the engine under consideration. I seem to recall
> a mention of an Alfa Romeo engine possibility. I presume that even though
> Ferrari first worked at Alfa Romeo, in the 60's there was no relationship
> between the companies. Is it Fiat owned now too? So, it wasn't the Alfa
> engine that Ferrari was going to supply, right? Which books or articles
> discuss this more? What are the other details? I seem to remember a
> napkin being part of the story.
>
> Jay

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted)

With all of the cylinder head design work being done in England back then, the only reason I can think of why Rootes would go to Ferrari would be to give Lord Rootes a company paid trip to sunny Italy!

I think the "Rootes-Ferrari" connection was just BSing by Lord Rootes and Enzo because Rootes did not give a whatever for performance-he was only interested in selling lots of Hillmans and making alot of money. In the end, he did not do either and Chrysler bought Rootes and eventually killed it.

Jan



(email redacted) wrote:
> Hi Jay:I seem to recall (I can't find it written down anywhere--drat!)that
early or mid-'60's Rootes had approached Ferrari to design a cylinder
head for the alpine.
At some time talks broke down and that was that.


Regards
David Sosna

(email redacted) wrote:
>
> As long as we are on the topic of Italian machines, a few people have
> commented about the Ferrari connection with the Alpine. I know I've read
> about it here and there. But, I don't recall ever seeing anything more
> than that Lord Rootes was a friendly acquaintance with Ferrari. That they
> met in Italy to discuss some sort of engine supply and that by the time
> Rootes got back to England, Ferrari decided not to do anything. In the
> Langworth book, he says the deal with Ferrari was in 1962. He says that
> the Dino V6 was possibly the engine under consideration. I seem to recall
> a mention of an Alfa Romeo engine possibility. I presume that even though
> Ferrari first worked at Alfa Romeo, in the 60's there was no relationship
> between the companies. Is it Fiat owned now too? So, it wasn't the Alfa
> engine that Ferrari was going to supply, right? Which books or articles
> discuss this more? What are the other details? I seem to remember a
> napkin being part of the story.
>
> Jay

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted)

Jan:
Interesting you should mention English cylinder heads. Too bad for us
that the eventual Sunbeam Lotus connection didn't happen in time for our
cars to take advantage of it. The (roughly) 2.2 liter twincam
Lotus/Jensen Healey lump put out 150 h.p. and 150 lb/ft of torque in
street form. Don't know if it would fit in our cars or not since I'm
not sure which side the exhaust exits on and our infamous steering box
tends to make things difficult. Too bad the car shows have done for the
year or I could start checking out Jensen Healy motors.

Regards
David

(email redacted) wrote:
>
> With all of the cylinder head design work being done in England back then, the only reason I can think of why Rootes would go to Ferrari would be to give Lord Rootes a company paid trip to sunny Italy!
>
> I think the "Rootes-Ferrari" connection was just BSing by Lord Rootes and Enzo because Rootes did not give a whatever for performance-he was only interested in selling lots of Hillmans and making alot of money. In the end, he did not do either and Chrysler bought Rootes and eventually killed it.
>
> Jan
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Jarrid Gross <(email redacted)>

David wrote,

First of all, the lotus JH engine (907) was 2 liters, not the 2.2
of the (910) used in the STL. The stromberg 175cd equipped engine
produeced roughly 130BHP in stock form, but lotus did manufacture
a "weber" head for this series of engine, which produced more power.
These heads seem to have made there way over, but are not original
equipment for US based jensen exports.

The intake is on the same side as the alpine head, and the exhuast
is on the opposite side of the head (as should be).

The engine cants significantly which alleviates the steering box
problem in alpines (like the alpine GT/hunter setup only moreso).
The height of the engine is greatert than the alpine due to the
DOHC head,
BUT...
The engines angle is so great that it is probably shorter than the
alpine engine after it is mounted.

Personally I think it'd fit.
AND...
Jenson (rootes) 4 speed + OD transmisions are very available and
cheap as compared to alpine transmisions.
This because the later model ZF 5 speed is coveted by JH owners.

If anyone has the interest, I have a 907 engine available to me for
measurmeents.


Jarrid Gross





>Jan:
>Interesting you should mention English cylinder heads. Too bad for us
>that the eventual Sunbeam Lotus connection didn't happen in time for our
>cars to take advantage of it. The (roughly) 2.2 liter twincam
>Lotus/Jensen Healey lump put out 150 h.p. and 150 lb/ft of torque in
>street form. Don't know if it would fit in our cars or not since I'm
>not sure which side the exhaust exits on and our infamous steering box
>tends to make things difficult. Too bad the car shows have done for the
>year or I could start checking out Jensen Healy motors.
>
>Regards
>David

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted)

Hmmmmm, the Jensen Healey used a Hillman Avenger transmission (read Plymouth Cricket) and this was available with an O/D???? I did not know that, interesting. I gather the later ZF trans was from a BMW.

Jan


Jarrid Gross <(email redacted)> wrote:
> David wrote,

First of all, the lotus JH engine (907) was 2 liters, not the 2.2
of the (910) used in the STL. The stromberg 175cd equipped engine
produeced roughly 130BHP in stock form, but lotus did manufacture
a "weber" head for this series of engine, which produced more power.
These heads seem to have made there way over, but are not original
equipment for US based jensen exports.

The intake is on the same side as the alpine head, and the exhuast
is on the opposite side of the head (as should be).

The engine cants significantly which alleviates the steering box
problem in alpines (like the alpine GT/hunter setup only moreso).
The height of the engine is greatert than the alpine due to the
DOHC head,
BUT...
The engines angle is so great that it is probably shorter than the
alpine engine after it is mounted.

Personally I think it'd fit.
AND...
Jenson (rootes) 4 speed + OD transmisions are very available and
cheap as compared to alpine transmisions.
This because the later model ZF 5 speed is coveted by JH owners.

If anyone has the interest, I have a 907 engine available to me for
measurmeents.


Jarrid Gross





>Jan:
>Interesting you should mention English cylinder heads. Too bad for us
>that the eventual Sunbeam Lotus connection didn't happen in time for our
>cars to take advantage of it. The (roughly) 2.2 liter twincam
>Lotus/Jensen Healey lump put out 150 h.p. and 150 lb/ft of torque in
>street form. Don't know if it would fit in our cars or not since I'm
>not sure which side the exhaust exits on and our infamous steering box
>tends to make things difficult. Too bad the car shows have done for the
>year or I could start checking out Jensen Healy motors.
>
>Regards
>David

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Jarrid Gross <(email redacted)>

Jan wrote,

>Hmmmmm, the Jensen Healey used a Hillman Avenger transmission (read
Plymouth Cricket) and this was available with >an O/D???? I did not know
that, interesting. I gather the later ZF trans was from a BMW.
>
>Jan

No, the Jenson Healey used a Hunter transmision (lengthened SV trans)
and a Laycock J type OD.
Not an avenger transmision.
I read, (never saw) that the avenger used a "new" designed gearbox with
integral bellhousing.

Well the ZF trans might have been used in a BWM, but ZF was making
transmisions
for many european automakers at that time, including the Audi group, Opel
even
DeTomoso Pantera.

The ZF would be a viable replacement for the alpine trans were it not so
expensive to get one.



Jarrid Gross

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted)

Oh, I am using a Jensen Healey speedometer cable in my Cricket and the fellow at the Jensen Healey place called the trans a "Talbot" trans. That was not quite true-the Hunters were gone by the time of the name change. However, you are correct in that the Avenger/Cricket does have an integral bell housing. I joked that my rare Plymouth Cricket used the same speedometer cable as a "common" Jensen Healey.

Jan


Jarrid Gross <(email redacted)> wrote:
> Jan wrote,
>Hmmmmm, the Jensen Healey used a Hillman Avenger transmission (read
Plymouth Cricket) and this was available with >an O/D???? I did not know
that, interesting. I gather the later ZF trans was from a BMW.
>
>Jan

No, the Jenson Healey used a Hunter transmision (lengthened SV trans)
and a Laycock J type OD.
Not an avenger transmision.
I read, (never saw) that the avenger used a "new" designed gearbox with
integral bellhousing.

Well the ZF trans might have been used in a BWM, but ZF was making
transmisions
for many european automakers at that time, including the Audi group, Opel
even
DeTomoso Pantera.

The ZF would be a viable replacement for the alpine trans were it not so
expensive to get one.



Jarrid Gross

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted)

Hi Jarrid:
Of course you're right-the JH engine is 2 liters--I wasn't being clear:
I thought I'd start by measuring a JH 2 liter engine for fitment (thanx
for your response on that, by the way) and then REALLY complicate things
by trying to get hold of one of the STL 2.2 liter stroker motors which I
figured had the same external dimensions as the JH engine. Of course I
could just simplify matters (especially after T.J. Higgins enthusiastic
endorsement) by getting a JH and stopping there--naaah, that'd be too
easy :-)

Regards
David


Jarrid Gross wrote:
>
> David wrote,
>
> First of all, the lotus JH engine (907) was 2 liters, not the 2.2
> of the (910) used in the STL. The stromberg 175cd equipped engine
> produeced roughly 130BHP in stock form, but lotus did manufacture
> a "weber" head for this series of engine, which produced more power.
> These heads seem to have made there way over, but are not original
> equipment for US based jensen exports.
>
> The intake is on the same side as the alpine head, and the exhuast
> is on the opposite side of the head (as should be).
>
> The engine cants significantly which alleviates the steering box
> problem in alpines (like the alpine GT/hunter setup only moreso).
> The height of the engine is greatert than the alpine due to the
> DOHC head,
> BUT...
> The engines angle is so great that it is probably shorter than the
> alpine engine after it is mounted.
>
> Personally I think it'd fit.
> AND...
> Jenson (rootes) 4 speed + OD transmisions are very available and
> cheap as compared to alpine transmisions.
> This because the later model ZF 5 speed is coveted by JH owners.
>
> If anyone has the interest, I have a 907 engine available to me for
> measurmeents.
>
> Jarrid Gross
>
> >Jan:
> >Interesting you should mention English cylinder heads. Too bad for us
> >that the eventual Sunbeam Lotus connection didn't happen in time for our
> >cars to take advantage of it. The (roughly) 2.2 liter twincam
> >Lotus/Jensen Healey lump put out 150 h.p. and 150 lb/ft of torque in
> >street form. Don't know if it would fit in our cars or not since I'm
> >not sure which side the exhaust exits on and our infamous steering box
> >tends to make things difficult. Too bad the car shows have done for the
> >year or I could start checking out Jensen Healy motors.
> >
> >Regards
> >David